tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25157226.post115880172167519659..comments2023-11-05T03:01:05.595-06:00Comments on DEO GLORIA: Worship is a Verb: Part 3Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25157226.post-1158856014674753472006-09-21T11:26:00.000-05:002006-09-21T11:26:00.000-05:00Scott,I agree with your modified conclusion.In loo...Scott,<BR/><BR/>I agree with your modified conclusion.<BR/><BR/>In looking at 1 Cor 8 (and following), we need to understand that there were two parts to Paul's instruction - 1) being that a Christian brother with knowledge needs to make sure to not act out of arrogance in regard to a freedom and 2) that we must educate each other about these freedoms.<BR/><BR/>What Paul didn't advocate was being shackled permanently by a brother that doesn't understand the freedom.<BR/><BR/>What Paul also didn't advocate is the individual who knows the freedom, bashing it over another's heads with little disregard.<BR/><BR/>There is time for putting down your freedoms and a time for teaching others that they also have freedom in Christ.<BR/><BR/>I think you've made a good point of covering both of those sides... I just want to make sure that we understand the scope - we don't want to be misinterpreted as saying that it is never appropriate to be expressive because there is always a weaker brother.<BR/><BR/>Another couple of interesting points/questions:<BR/><BR/>1) 1 Cor 8 uses the example of something that is extra Biblical... whether or not to eat meat, given unto an idol - This is approaching from the standpoint of whether or not we can do *non-spiritual* things that others think are "not allowed". Drinking alcohol, eating meat, etc.<BR/><BR/>How does that differ from expression of love toward the Father, Himself? We aren't dealing with people who think loving the Father is a sin (like eating meat given to idols) - we are dealing with people who merely aren't comfortable with open expression<BR/><BR/>Since we are talking sinner-to-God expression, let's try to be more apples to apples and apply the same thought process to prayer in the church - if a brother is uncomfortable with public prayer - should we not do so from the pulpit?<BR/><BR/>2) The passage also uses the word "apollytai" (sp?) which can refer to a physical death (in response to a weaker brother becoming confused) - It seems that (like I seem to do :)) , Paul likes to share extremes at times to express his points.<BR/><BR/>Summing up - let me take my original two parts and add a third:<BR/><BR/>1) We should not be arrogant in our freedoms by doing so in a fake, attention seeking or disruptive manner (IE - I'd advocate that closing your eyes, putting your face toward the sky and raising your hands is ok... doing cartwheels down the aisle while speaking in tongues is not).<BR/><BR/>2) We do need to be aware of the state of weaker brothers and sisters - but part of being aware is using teachable moments to share with them the freedoms we have understood to be had in Christ.<BR/><BR/>3) The reserved state around a weaker brother is not a perpetual thing.<BR/><BR/>Without diving back into the clothing arguments, I don't think Paul's intent is to take lowest common denominator legalism and allow it to rule the land. I think he advocates a time where while relationships are being established, we show respect (not arrogance) toward others so that we can form a relationship in which they can be educated - removing the issue in the long run.<BR/><BR/>Just my thoughts - its only 11 am - my brain isn't working yet. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25157226.post-1158846625730054622006-09-21T08:50:00.000-05:002006-09-21T08:50:00.000-05:00Other thought.... The classifying of cessasionist ...Other thought.... The classifying of cessasionist to charismatic is not all-inclusive, but simply a tangible means to discuss the topic. In a recent message on gifts of the Spirit, Mark Driscoll classified people into four categories:<BR/><BR/>Cessasionist, Charismatic, Charismaniac & Pentacostal<BR/><BR/>His classifications are way cooler than mine, but I’m not sure they are more theologically appropriate.Scott Sternerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17945174129294021532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25157226.post-1158845906475057712006-09-21T08:38:00.000-05:002006-09-21T08:38:00.000-05:00Jim, I agree that there is often a disconnect betw...Jim, I agree that there is often a disconnect between our excitement for the things NOT of God and the affections we bring to worship. This is the result of our fallen nature (e.g. love of the world vs. love of God).<BR/><BR/>Another way to think about the issue of the weaker conscience….<BR/><BR/>In 1 Cor 8 Paul was saying, though it’s ok to eat food offered to idols, don’t do it because it causes other to sin. Our response could be “come on Paul it’s just food! Those who struggle with this should just get over it!” Paul said no, it’s better to give up the food than cause the brother to stumble.<BR/><BR/>Now, this passage does ask us to give up our freedoms for the sake of our brother and sister. This is a good thing; however, the other side of the issue is that we must be committed to educating the weaker conscience. This is a huge teaching point from this passage and has been one of my purposes for this devotional series on participation in worship.<BR/><BR/>BTW: I edited the end of this post to better articulate my closing thoughts on the issue.Scott Sternerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17945174129294021532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25157226.post-1158810908621707242006-09-20T22:55:00.000-05:002006-09-20T22:55:00.000-05:00Scott,You make some excellent points.There is a fr...Scott,<BR/><BR/>You make some excellent points.<BR/><BR/>There is a freedom of worship that many mainstream Christians don't seem to comprehend.<BR/><BR/>It seems easier to avoid the concept of worship altogether than it is to thread what many believe to be a fine line between being wildly charismatic and being cautiously conservative.<BR/><BR/>I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea that we are have both freedom and a responsibility to consider. That being said, as you also comment, this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone stands quietly with their hands at their side. <BR/><BR/>We often take the concept of being "responsible" and substitute "maintaining the lowest common denominator" in its place - if anyone doesn't raise their hand in worship, then we all probably better not.<BR/><BR/>Almost in essence creating a breeding ground for lack of maturity. Be easy to swallow, don't be Biblical. :)<BR/><BR/>We need not be abrasive or disruptive in our worship, but we also need to recognize (as you mention) when it might be a proper time to Biblically educate someone who doesn't understand the freedom of worship or some other Biblical concept.<BR/><BR/>We've got to be careful to not misuse the intent of "not causing a weaker brother to stumble".<BR/><BR/>This is never to say that person A must mimic person B. This is just simply to say that if the person next to me raises their hands in praise to God - and I don't feel led to do so - then praise God all the more for an environment where both responses are acceptable. Praise God for the fact that person A and person B can be together worshipping in their respective manners under one roof.<BR/><BR/>Its an interesting thought to consider that we are worshipping a God that has individually saved us for eternity... called us each His... yet we don't see celebratory joy from people in response.<BR/><BR/>"That's not me - I don't do that sort of thing - I'm not an emotional person etc" are what I imagine to be typical responses - yet take that same person and put them at the 50 yard line of a Hawkeye game and see what happens?<BR/><BR/>Iowa license plate cover - Iowa clothing - Iowa seat cushion - face painted yellow and black -throat sore from yelling and back and feet aching from stomping in the stands every time the cheerleaders say to make some noise...<BR/><BR/>Ask the same person to give an "Amen" in the church and you could hear paint drying.<BR/><BR/>Priorities.<BR/><BR/>Makes you go "hmmm...."<BR/><BR/>Can I get an "Amen"? Ok.. well... at least a "Go Hawks"!?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com